Jousi

[M.Reinikainen]

Kurkistua groserin bio-komposiitin sisää.

http://www.docdroid.net/7pag/magyar-extra-3-szakvelemeny.pdf.html

Alussa esitetty "aitous-todistus" dokumentti jossa selitetään jousen olevan rakennettu perinteisiä oppeja vaalien..

Ja sitten leikkaus pöydälle!

Mutta mutta mikäs se siellä siyahs:in juurella pilkistää??
_________________
You can´t outrun death forever...
But you can make the bastartd work for it

[Juri]

Unkarin taitoni ovat liian heikot ymmärtääkseni tekstistä yhtään mitään...
Tarkoitatko sitä koneruuvia vai mitä?

[M.Reinikainen]

Tämä on vaan asiakirja, joka näyttää cut-up "Extra III", joka myytiin aitona sarvijousena, valmistettu ainoastaan ​​luonnon materiaaleista, Ja todistus kirja vielä mukaan.. Kuitenkin, jousessa on laminoitu ydin, liimattu epoksilla, ja siyahs:in juurella on ruuvattu metallin kanssa kiinni ja peitetty epoksii.. Ensimmäinen "jänne" kerros ei ole edes jännettä...
_________________
You can´t outrun death forever...
But you can make the bastartd work for it

[Rakonczay]

Täytynee ottaa sanakirja käteen ja kääntää tosta tärkeimmät kohdat. Siitä voi olla vielä joskus hyötyä.

[Ari Rantala]

[J Menna]

Olenkin pitänyt Grozeryn jousia vain mallinnuksina - en primijousina. Tämä oli selkeä vahvistus asiaan.
Toisaalta, olisi suoranainen ihme jos joku valmistaisi "teolliseen" myyntiin jousia, joissa materilit olisivat primiä: sarvi, luonnonliimat, jänteet...

On varmasti suurissa tuotantomäärissä näppärämpää voiton maksimoimiseksi käyttää lasikuitua, epoksia ja vaikka ruuveja tuotannon nopeuttamiseksi/helpottamiseksi.

[Tuomo]

Juha on varmasti oikeassa mutta jos jousi myydään aitona komposiittina, niin silloin sen pitäisi tietenkin olla sitä. Jousen voi tehdä miten ja mistä tahansa mutta asiakkaallee olis hyvä kertoa totuus.

Oliko jousen avaajalla epäilys aitoudesta vai miksi hän oli avannut jousen, joka ei varmasti ihan ilmainen ollut?

Ranehan osaa unkaria - käännöstä odotellessa!

[J Menna]

Joo. Täyttä sikaa myydä niitä primeinä.

[M.Reinikainen]

Jousi avettiin koska haluttiin selvittää mikä tämä "bio" komposiitti on härvelinä. Voiko hyväksyä kisoihin historia luokassa vai ei.
Suomen primikisaan en hyväksy.

Pistän tähän nyt pääpiirtein mitä aiheesta on jo keskusteltu Fabookin puolella.

Ivar Malde:
Recently I got to handle a Grozer so-called "bio-composite". The owner was happy with the bow and it shot well. However, he thought he had bought a bow made with horn and sinew. When asked, I reluctantly told him that the active ingredient were the glass fiber layers in the bow, and that what might look like horn on the belly really was not. I can safely say that it was not horn on the belly, as horn simply does not come in full bow lenghts. The same goes for the layer on the back.

I think this business is on the edge of what is ethically right, as this is not the first time I have met archers which have found out that they really did not get the "hornbow" that they bought. I think it is shameful, and also a problem for competitions when they are held for all natural material bows only.

I guess there are people in this group who are selling these bows: I wonder, do you tell the customers about the glass fiber and the fake horn?

Knowing how he cheats with even the "real" horn bows, and this unclear business with the biocomposites, I would much rather save a little more and buy from Saluki. I would much rather buy from someone honest, which does not intentionally fool their customers.

Here is a document showing a cut-up "Extra III", which was sold as a real horn bow made of only natural materials, even with a certificate stating so. However, the bow is made on a laminated core, glued with epoxy, and the siyahs are screwed on with a metal screw and covered with epoxy. The first "sinew" layer is not even sinew...
http://www.docdroid.net/.../magyar-extra-3-szakvelemeny...

Up untill I learned this I thought Grozer made ok stuff, and I some times did not have the heart either to tell fellow archers about the glass fiber in their bows, but now I feel like being more blunt about it.

It is somewhat frustrating that his business is probably so big that he does not have to care about this. There will always be new customers to be decieved.


Peter Dekker:
Magén Klomp (who goes by the name Fairbow Nederland) also took apart such a bow once and found a screw. He got threats from some Hungarian dealers when he had posted the pics on FB.

I think the problem is two-fold: many people out there mistreat their bows. When it breaks, it is always the bowyer's fault in the eyes of most people. Therefore modern bowyers have to make bows stronger, resulting among others in more bulky limbs for the draw weight. I've tested some pretty good glassfiber Manchu bows with slender, lightweight ears, but when they started to sell them people broke the ears while stringing and demanded a refund. Without a firm base of people that appreciate the fragility of well-made bows, bowyers will always be forced to produce foolproof, substandard alternatives that are hard to mess up.


Tähän väliin yksi puolesta puhuja!

Classic Bow:

Actually it combines the laminated, the TRH laminated, the TRH Extra II laminated bows.
The bows made by this technology consist of the following materials: the middle layers of wood, the inner layer of pressed horn, while the outer layer of pressed sinew plate. These two layers are glued to the wooden plate by modern glue and the glued layer gets a fibre strengthening.
Due to these biocomposite materials and the modern technology these bows are faster then the simple laminated bows. They are appreciably soft and without any resonance when drawing.
These bows give almost the same shooting experience than a hornbow and even their appearance is similar, although the biocomposite bows are flatter.


Ja heti perään pudotus isku

Peter Dekker:
Ah, the first to defend the merchandise.

Also I see your website states:
"In Hungary, traditional archery and bow making craftsmanship is still alive. Bowyers like Csaba Grózer and Zoltán Tóth craft replicas as close to the original as possible.

These master bowyers reproduce authentic recurve bows, found in 10th century graves by archaeologists in the 1920's.

Our traditional bow store, founded in 2000, has the best quality bows available."

There are several things wrong with these statements.
1. The craftsmanship is not still alive there, it has been revived like on most places in the world.
2. "as close to the original as possible" should perhaps be: "inspired by original bows" because we all know there are people out there (even amateur bowyers) that get much, much closer to the originals.
3. "These master bowyers reproduce authentic recurve bows, found in 10th century graves by archaeologists in the 1920's." Not really true, even the archaeologist that dug them up said that the ones he found were much shorter than the ones they are making today.
4. "Our traditional bow store, founded in 2000, has the best quality bows available." So the bows on sale are better than, say, those by people like Wen Chieh, Lukas Novotny, Jaap Koppedrayer, Adam Karpowicz, Péter Bencsik, Francesco Alessi, or the Korean bowyers?
_________________
You can´t outrun death forever...
But you can make the bastartd work for it

[patis]

Löytyykö tuota Extra III:en avausdokumenttia vielä jostain? Tuo biokomposiitti nyt ei ollut niin yllätys, paitsi ehkä ruuvin osalta.

Mutta Extra III:et on kyllä markkinoitu perinteisinä. Tosin ainahan tuo on hieman epäilyttänyt hinnan puolesta kun tunnetusti Saluki bow:t tehdään perinteisin menetelmin ja hinta onkin kolminkertainen.

[M.Reinikainen]

Tuo ylhäällä avattu jousi on nimen omaan Extra III!

Sehän tääs vituttaakin kun toimiva osa jousessa on laminoitu puu ja kahva, kuitumatto sarven alla ja jänteiden välissä liimattuna. Etiketissä lukee naturel mutta sisältö onkin pelkkiä Ekoodeja ja primitiivisyys jää esteettiseksi.

Jos lukisi että: Perinteen tyylinen niin ok mutku...
_________________
You can´t outrun death forever...
But you can make the bastartd work for it

[Rakonczay]

JOs noissa on useassa jousessa ruuvi sijahin kiinnityksessä. niin löytyisiköhän se magneetilla tai "miinaharavalla". Voisi olla parille kaverille kisoijen varustetarkastuksessa kova paikka, kun metallinpaljastin hälyttäisi jousta tutkittaessa.